Chat transcript: Star vaccination investigation

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Chat transcript: Star vaccination investigation

Reporters Stephanie Innes and Rob O'Dell chatted about how unvaccinated kids threaten all of us.

Welcome to StarNet's live chat today with Arizona Daily Star reporters Stephanie Innes and Rob O'Dell. We'll be talking about their special report published on Sunday about vaccination rates in Arizona.You may ask questions at any time or share your experiences with vaccinations. Questions will not appear immediately, but will show as the questions are being answered. We'll be getting under way in just a few minutes.

by Debbie Kornmiller, SN producer 5/22/2012 6:49:28 PM
Thanks for joining us in this chat. Just to recap our story from Sunday: the Star found one in three kindergarten classes in Arizona last year had an unsafe level of children vaccinated. That means there was no so-called "herd immunity" to protect children in those classes from vaccine-preventable diseases like whooping cough, measles and mumps.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 6:57:47 PM
I could not locate the statistical data cited to wit. AZ Dept of Health Scervices- Center for Disease Control and Prevention. Where does one find these data?

by Geoffrey Fox 5/22/2012 6:59:15 PM
The federal data is available on the CDC website, in the CDC vaccination pink book. The state data is available through the Arizona Department of Health Services. It is not on their website, but they will provide it on request.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:00:57 PM
Thanks so much for chatting with us about our series on vaccinations in schools.

We first requested vaccination data for kindergarten classes on Jan 4 from the Arizona Department of Health Services. We felt the school data was a better look at vaccines than zip codes, which is often how vaccination rates are broken down.

We obtained data from the state for the 2009-10 and 2010-11 school years. It was given to use by county, so we had to combine the data, clean it to remove erroneous data and then determine which schools fell below safe levels that we determined by talking to health experts.

The state withheld data for schools with kindergarten classes under 20 students because they claimed unvaccinated children could be identified. They stuck to this even though we threatened to sue them. They finally gave us the data for schools under 20 kindergarten students, but with the names redacted. To get the final vaccination rates by county and statewide, we had to combine the schools both under and over 20 students. It showed that one in three Arizona schools fell below safe vaccination levels, and in some counties, it was much worse.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:02:01 PM
We received our vaccinations and polio drinks at school. We also had our hearing and vision checked at school. Why can't this be an option today as it was in the past? It makes perfect sense. The children are already in place. I know that money is a factor in vaccinations. There are many people who make to much money to be on a sliding scale at the health centers but these same people cannot afford health insurance because $10.87 an hour just barely covers rent, food and mandatory car insurance. I also know that health insurance at work is very expensive and to obtain it through work is not an option. I have experience that vaccinations can change the personality of your child. There are so many new shots that people feel like their children are being used as lab experiments.

by Taylor.C2012 edited by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:03:08 PM
Many people have concerns about the number of shots/doses that are both recommended by the CDC and mandated by the state. This is understandable - there are a lot! Both doctors and the state allow some leeway on the schedule, so parents may space out the timing. Also, the instances of adverse effects from vaccines are very, very rare and the data shows that the advantages of vaccinating outweigh risks.

As for vaccines in schools, no it's no longer done, likely for liability and cost reasons.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:06:36 PM
It was appalling to read about the high percentage of unvaccinated children attending school in AZ. In my opinion, this is a huge leadership problem at the school level. Of course, there should be enforcement at the state level, but even absent that, the principal must absolutely require that all students be immunized (unless exempted) or be excluded.

by Ann Kurtz edited by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:07:29 PM
We found that the schools with a commitment to vaccinate were the ones with the highest rates. A school nurse helps, but high vaccinates rates can be accomplished as long as someone at the school is committed to keeping the rates high. That can be a nurse, front office manager, administrator or principal. However, enforcement of the law by the state would obviously help because most of the unvaccinated students are at schools that are not following the law.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:08:45 PM
As for vaccines in schools, no it's no longer done, likely for liability and cost reasons. Yes, I'm sure its the liability thing!

by doug edited by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:08:59 PM
Why is there never any coverage or time devoted to the minority views, called "Anecdotal', as it relates to the dangers and horrific cases of bad outcomes of immunizations? Is this by design or is it just that it doesn't sell papers?

by warren 5/22/2012 7:09:10 PM
We initially included parents with concerns about vaccinations, and the autism/vaccine debate in our story but it turned into a bigger story, and one that will come out in the newspaper in June.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:09:53 PM
A little more on that: In the upcoming story we will talk about the federal government's vaccine injury compensation fund, and also talk to parents who have very real and understandable concerns about immunizing their children.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:11:27 PM
who are the unvaccinated children hurting?

by Sarah 5/22/2012 7:12:13 PM
It is important that vaccinations be tied not to the health of the person being vaccinated, but to the health of those who are unable to be vaccinated due to medical conditions or age. This is a subtle point that is missed often such as in today's editorial cartoon.

by pueblodna 5/22/2012 7:12:19 PM
Yes, children who aren't vaccinated might not get sick themselves, but they put others at risk, particularly newborn infants who are too young to be immunized. Also, there are many children with compromised immune systems who are in school - children who have received organ transplants, who have cancer, or who are on intense medication like steroids. As medicine improves and keeps more children alive and in school, we also have more immuno-compromised kids who are susceptible to disease.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:14:27 PM
How did parents who do not vaccinate their kids justify the potential risks to others? I know the series was focused on elementary schools, but did you get a general idea of what the vaccination rates were in middle and high schools?

by Tim edited by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:15:15 PM
I don't know what parents say to themselves, but it likely stems from a belief that vaccinations either don't work, or will do more harm to their children than good. Many people don't remember how bad some of these diseases were. Others believe that vaccines cause harm. Our next story will focus more on this.

As for the middle and high school numbers, we don't have them now but are requesting them. That will be another installment of our series that will run around the start of the school year.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:16:33 PM
you should be ashamed, encouraging parents to poisen their children for profit

by doug 5/22/2012 7:17:01 PM
We've heard parents who feel vaccinations are a way for the pharmaceutical industry to make money, and doctors, too. Doctors are actually not reimbursed very well for immunizations, and as you know they take a Hippocratic oath: first, do no harm. So most doctors have their patients' best interest when they recommend vaccinations.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:18:27 PM
I am a microbiologist with training in immunology, and an attorney. As an undergrad, a world-renown microbial pathologist told us that in a very rare instance, vaccines could do harm. But he added that the good they do in vanquishing deadly diseases outweighs the bad so much that people who don't get their children vaccinated are morons and a blight on society. He then proceed to describe the horrendous slow death of a child with whooping cough. Immigrants are not the problem - the local Hispanic media guides them to free vaccinations. The reservoir of contagion lies with white people who will not defer to medical science and authority.

by Arizona Joe 5/22/2012 7:19:06 PM
I will give two answers to this question. About immigrants, this answer is roughly what we found. Although there are a few low-income schools (likely with many immigrants) that have lower rates, they are often brought up to high levels very quickly.

The data showed that charter schools and private schools do not improve as much or bring their rates to high levels.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:21:28 PM
As for the second answer, several of these comments are indicative of the divide between people who do and don't vaccine. Arguments on either side will not convince people to think about or change their position. And they often have not very nice things to say about the other side.

This will again be part of our next story.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:23:36 PM
Thanks again for your article! Did you come across anyone talking about how there are two pediatricians who have written and sell materials telling parents it is ok not to vaccinate and that these diseases are not dangerous. Their names are Dr. Bob Sears and Dr. Jay Gordon.

by gtmadison 5/22/2012 7:24:22 PM
There is a lot of information on the Internet both for and against vaccines. When we talked to Dr. Arturo Gonzalez, an Arizona pediatrician who is president of the Arizona chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics, he advised against using "Dr. Google" for the answer. Rather, talk to your pediatrician. The CDC's pink book on vaccinations also provides good statistical information, including pre-and post-vaccine morbidity statistics.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:24:29 PM
But as Rob said: A lot of these pro and anti vaccine issues will be addressed in our next story.
This story was to identify rates in schools.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:25:06 PM
@Sinnes The AZ Academy of Pediatrics has had to fight really hard for legislation to be introduced simply to make sure that insurance companies pay even the acquistion costs of vaccines paid by pediatricians, so if someone is making a lot of money off vaccines, it isn't the doctors.

by gtmadison 5/22/2012 7:25:45 PM
That's right. Doctors are not reimbursed very well for vaccines. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my previous post.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:26:18 PM
What if the vaccine casualties represent a larger number than those saved by vaccines? Or even worse, what if vaccines save NO lives and only harm people, weakening their long-term immune defenses and poisoning them with aluminum, polysorbate 80, mercury and other chemical adjuvants and preservatives?

by doug 5/22/2012 7:27:06 PM
This is a question I need to ask for those who believe there is no evidence that vaccines work. What about smallpox? It was one of the largest killers in history. Wiped out millions of people.

We don't have to get vaccinated for smallpox anymore because it has been eradicated from the world. Vaccinations eliminated it from the world as a disease. How do you address this?

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:29:08 PM
Yes, I will add to what Rob said: look at haemophilus influenzae, now preventable in babies with the Hib vaccine. Before the vaccine, haemophilus influenzae killed nearly half of the babies who contracted it, and those who survived often had lasting damage.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:31:12 PM
My biggest concern is that many parents are being misled by those two pediatricians I mentioned, as their publications get lots of play on all the mommy boards, and sadly, none of the big organizations like the AAP or AMA or AAFP or CDC have spoken out against their dangerous advice.

by gtmadison 5/22/2012 7:32:05 PM
Here's a link to the Star's investigation. You can find the stories and databases here. azstarnet.com

by Debbie K 5/22/2012 7:34:09 PM
There are a lot of groups who believe they are giving the best information. A group with excellent unbiased information in Arizona is The Arizona Partnership for Immunization.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:34:25 PM
One of the doctors we spoke to mentioned "birds of a feather" - so the worst thing to do is just rely on word-of-mouth from fellow parents. Best to go directly to a trusted medical source.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:35:26 PM
@Sarah Children not vaccinated are media for the virus that causes measles and the bacteria that causes whooping cough to grow on. In large numbers, these children become a reservoir of contagion which can affect neonates, old people whose antibody titers may be low, or fetuses in the womb vulnerable to birth defects from disease. Without everyone getting vaccinated, the public health plan has big holes in it and becomes ineffective.

by Arizona Joe 5/22/2012 7:35:27 PM
This is the main point of our story. Science has shown that the concept of herd immunity protects the weak, unvaccinated, those whose vaccines didn't work and babies who are too young to be vaccinated.

The unvaccinated do serve as vectors for the vaccine preventable disease, which is why unvaccinated children are excluded from schools when there is an outbreak.

This is what is happening with measles. The US declared that measles was eradicated in the US in 2000. But there are still outbreaks of the disease because those infected with measles come to the US and inflect a population that is increasingly not vaccinated against measles.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:38:13 PM
Measles cases hit a 15 year high in 2011. Highest since 1996

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:39:00 PM
Ridiculous right? Waivers can be signed and money for vaccine programs can be found. Please let's remove the obstacles.

by taylorc2012 edited by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:39:44 PM
As I go over these posts, it saddens me that "what if" and "cost and liability" stands in the way of keeping our children and our community safe and healthy. What if the moon fell to earth? Ridiculous

by taylorc2012 5/22/2012 7:40:05 PM
There are low-cost back to school clinics offered through Pima County this summer. Also, medical students at the University of Arizona College of Medicine are offering free shot clinics at the Community Food Bank this summer.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:41:26 PM
To be forced to immunize our children is another attack on our freedom! The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting and putting people in their high positions. THEY are electing our leaders! So to say that doctors are to blame is wrong. The doctors probably are feeling like they're giving their patients the best advice because they're just regurgitating what they've been taught in school which is run by the pharmaceutical companies who are the real profiteers. Again, I ask, are you aware of how these vaccinations are CULTURED? It is not only an attack on our freedom but also our religion. Are our religious beliefs no longer important? The way that these vaccinations are cultured would put a lot of us in a position where we would have to compromise our religious beliefs. Should those rights be taken away from us? Should only certain religions be catered to and not others?

by Sarah 5/22/2012 7:41:59 PM
Parents are not forced to immunize their children. They can sign a personal belief waiver if they have personal or religious objection.

They can also get a medical waiver, but that must be signed by a doctor.

Although the personal belief and medical waivers are allowed, children who are unvaccinated can be set home from school if there is a disease outbreak.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:44:59 PM
Some experts suggest it may also help to speak with people who remember vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks before the vaccines were developed. Thousands of children were paralyzed from polio in the 20th century, and nearly 17,000 in the U.S. died.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:46:18 PM
Here is a suggestion for future reporting--some pediatric practices in town will terminate their relationship with you if you do not keep you children up to date on their vaccines. In the past, when vaccination rates were much higher, this was viewed as being somewhat "militant", but now, given there are many more unvaccinated children, the odds are a lot higher for a pediatric practice that tolerates under/unvaccinated patients that one of those older kids could walk in and give pertussis to a newborn that is too young to be vaccinated. I find it interesting the AAP tells doctors not to terminate vaccine-noncompliant families, but at some point as these diseases come back (from the drop in vaccinations), it becomes a real risk to sit with a newborn in a doctor's waiting room if you don't know whehter all the other kids in their are fully vaccinated.

by gtmadison 5/22/2012 7:46:29 PM
This will become a bigger issue if vaccination rates continue to trend at the levels they are.

Schools and others could face civil liability for an outbreak that kills or severely injures people. This could be especially true if schools are not following the state law. It's hard to quantify exactly what could happen because I haven't seen any cases like that yet. If someone knows of one, please let us know.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:49:45 PM
Yes, but what it seems is trying to be accomplished here is that you want it to BE FORCED upon us, Correct?

by Sarah 5/22/2012 7:50:34 PM
Our investigation was looking at the state law on immunizations and how well it was being enforced in schools. We found many schools weren't enforcing it, and possibly not even giving parents a chance to explore their options.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:52:09 PM
We only have time for a few more questions. Please feel free to contact us at rodell@azstarnet.com or sinnes@azstarnet.com. We want to hear from you, whatever your beliefs on vaccinations are. We are putting together our story on autism and other objections to vaccines and want to hear people's voices. The story should run in June.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:53:44 PM
@Sarah Vaccines are produced when viruses grow on industrial tissue cell culture and bacteria on agar enriched media. The viruses and bacteria are then killed or attenuated in a way that retains their antigenic qualities. How this technology violates any religious precepts in the Old Testament is a figment of the benighted imagination.

by Arizona Joe 5/22/2012 7:54:08 PM
The other issue that has come up is school nurses - the schools with school nurses, or someone else dedicated to enforcing the law had a much better rate of complying with the law.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 7:54:27 PM
Freedom to have or not have your child vaccinated is still very much in place. People can choose not to vaccinate their child. But what about the risks that forces upon a community? What about their rights?

by taylorc2012 5/22/2012 7:55:26 PM
A lot of comments in the chat and in emails to us since the story ran have talked about vaccines and how they are cultured. We will address this in our next story, so please contact us.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:56:17 PM
The right to be protected from the unvaccinated could be a bigger issue in the coming years. Two more questions.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 7:57:54 PM
Does the CDC track vaccination rates? Are there state by state comparisons for vaccination rates?

by pmingram 5/22/2012 7:58:06 PM
There are some comparisons, but since states don't collect data in the same ways it's difficult to say it's apples to apples. We do know there are pockets or clusters in the country that have large numbers of unvaccinated children.

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 8:00:09 PM
You will never have a germ or disease free world. You may think that mandated vaccinations is a "cure all" but there isn't even tangible evidence showing that these vaccinations which have been proven to cause harm have have eradicated diseases. For instance, the bubonic plague wasn't fixed by vaccinations it just ran its course and was done.

by Sarah 5/22/2012 8:00:51 PM
Again, to this I have to come back to the example of smallpox. It was eliminated by vaccinations.

Bubonic plague is still around. It just isn't a big factor now because world conditions are much more sanitary. It is spread from the fleas of rats. The more sanitary the conditions, the less this is a factor. It's still around however.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 8:03:41 PM
@Sarah Bubonic plague is still with us, and shows up in Arizona every decade or so. FYI. You are the one thinking in absolutes. By the way, the March of Dimes will show you how efficacious the measles vaccine was in greatly lowering birth defects. Vaccines are not a panacea but the next best thing.

by Arizona Joe 5/22/2012 8:04:20 PM
Thanks so much for chatting with us. Please contact us at rodell@azstarnet.com or sinnes@azstarnet.com. We'd love to hear from you.

by Rob O'Dell, reporter 5/22/2012 8:04:49 PM
The March of Dimes has been a big player in trying to improve vaccination rates in Arizona, too.

Thanks for chatting with us!

by Stephanie Innes 5/22/2012 8:05:07 PM